11/20/2020
Lea Cline (D), County Board Member for District 8
Recorded: 09/15/2020. UPDATE: Lea Cline won her race against Republican opponent Jordan Baker, 3,898 (67%) to 1,899 (33%) on November 3rd, 2020.
Zach Gittrich: What steps do you think the sheriff’s office should take to increase accountability among officers?
Lea Cline: Well I think accountability always starts at the top, and how you demonstrate that kind of behavior-It’s really frustrating for me to see Sheriff Sandage be kind of petty about some things. I think in particular pointing to this issue about chalk, & use of public sidewalks and public land for protests; I don’t think it sets a really good precedent. And, listen, I understand that being a police officer right now is probably not the easiest job in the world, but you are somebody who is able to act as judge, jury, and be an executioner in your day-to-day, in discharging your duties that should be a hard job and you should get a lot of scrutiny. So I know it’s hard, and that there are some good police officers that are in the community talking about that and they’re trying really hard. But, it doesn’t help when the, the people who are struggling with it only get negative reinforcement from their sheriff.
I think we have to really start with having a sheriff that is willing to look problems for what they are and be willing to work on the solutions. I mean, the sheriff should be an advocate for his officers, that’s his job, but he should also be an advocate for the community and the constituents that brought him there, and to kind of have some back and forth. I think what’s so frustrating to me about Sandage is that there’s never back and forth. It’s always his way or the highway and granted, that’s how his department runs. The county board can’t tell him what do do. That the law is very clear.
Z.G.: They can only do it through a fiduciary means, right?
L.C.: Yeah. But, he isn’t somebody who is willing to listen to people and to work on things. So, that doesn’t help the relationship. We got to have somebody that we can get responsiveness from, otherwise we’re not going to be able to make much progress I think.
ZG: Do you support efforts to decrease police & jail budgets?
LC: I have a tough time with that, first of all because I don’t know enough about the budget at the Sheriff’s office, and I’m not 100 percent sure I understand exactly how much of the sheriff’s budget is going towards the health and safety of the imprisoned population. So, I don’t want to reduce healthcare, I don’t want them to have fewer doctors or have fewer resources if they happen to find themselves incarcerated. But, at the same time, I do think we need to have greater accountability in the sheriff’s office. When things like the ICS communications contract that everyone talks so much about. I think in situations like this that’s $130,000 that we don’t know where he put that money. He could be buying more weapons and we don’t know so, we don’t know where that’s going. (In a text, Lea Cline corrected this statement: money from the ICS contract goes directly into the general fund for McLean County, not the Sheriff’s budget.) Training is really important. But, I don’t wanna cut this jail budget at the expense of the health and safety of the people residing there. That’s something that’s going to have to get down to brass tacks a little bit and really kind of work through. In general, I am somebody who thinks that a kind of militarized police force is not what we need in this country. And that, you know, 70% of all calls to 911 are not crimes, right? They’re not actual crimes, so we need to have a better way of responding to those things, and I know I myself and I’m sure you have in your life had to call 911 in a situation where you don’t really need a police officer, where I really need a human services person, you know?
Z.G: Yeah, and just as a note, I’m pretty sure that the money that comes from the ICS contract goes directly into the general fund, not just into the sheriff’s budget.
L.C.: I know that asset forfeiture goes into the general fund but we don’t know exactly where the communication money went. I don’t know for certain, but definitely other forms of income do come & go into the general fund. Like, asset forfeiture which of course is a ridiculous thing that we should not be doing. But, nevertheless, if that money could go to helping the imprisoned population, towards healthcare services or something then that could definitely be more transparent to us.
Z.G.: Are there any, I know that you mentioned that you don’t have that much access to the various budgets, are there any cuts that you can think of that you think would be worth making-either to the sheriffs office, in their law enforcement role, or to the jail?
L.C.: Yeah, I don’t have a line item answer, and I don’t wanna… as I said, I am someone who definitely believes there needs to be massive changes, I don’t think there’s enough support on the county board right now to make some changes and that’s the only time you’ll be able to do that. The better approach I think is, with the people we DO have on the board, how can we massage some of that money away from the things that we don’t like, right? You know, I don’t want to be gearing up his department with more and more advanced machinery and weaponry. I don’t think we need tactical vehicles. I think if we have money that we can massage towards the health and safety of the incarcerated populations, then that’s what we should be doing. And it’s making sure he can’t spend money on trips to the White House, you know? We have to have some transparency. But at this point we don’t even have basic transparency because Republicans on the Board have never demanded it.
Because Sandage has a broad budget that comes in these broad categories. And, if he’s not pushed to itemize, you know–and you know the whole issue of the cannabis sales tax, he was screaming and yelling about the end of the world was going to come and if we didn’t have better training for the officers then that whole tax should go to the sheriff’s department to they can better prepare themselves for the apocalypse, and you know-where are we now? Sandage could say “I need it for training” and the Republicans would give it to him and so it’s a problem.
Z.G.: Would you support the creation of some kind of civilian review board to oversee the sheriff’s department, in the way that Bloomington has one? Or maybe one with a little bit more power?
L.C.: I’m supportive of the general idea of that but county government doesn’t work in the same way as city governments.. We can’t create those kinds of boards unless they’re allowed by state law. So change would have to come from the state legislature. The county board is an extension of the state government in Springfield. Our code-our manner of functioning-comes from the state so if the state allowed for it, if there was some legislation that allowed it, I would support it. But I don’t think that’s on the purview currently, of our rules.
Z.G.: Do you think the Sheriff position should be an elected or appointed position?
L.C.: It’s troubling to me that you can win a countywide race like that without the appropriate credentials. I mean, there are some baseline credentials, but I personally would be more comfortable with positions like sheriff, like positions like the county clerk and county auditor I think, professional positions that are hired based on professional achievements and therefore that there is some professional review process. Now, I’m someone who really thinks that to be a police officer you need to have accreditation and review. Like, dental hygienists have to get an annual review, why not the police officers carrying a gun, why don’t they have to have that? I think that making it a more professional approach I think would be smart, but not just for the sheriff’s office, but for several of these county-wide offices. Like, why is the coroner a political position. Like, the coroner should be someone who has the training and the credentials to do the work of a coroner and not just be popular. If there could be a professional approach to the hiring of the sheriff and not a political one.
Z.G.: Would you be in support of abolishing qualified immunity for police officers?
L.C.: Would I be in support? I mean, obviously it would never come to me, being on the county board it’s just not possible; the basic answer is yes-but with some qualifications. I think that the idea behind having some safeguards for officers is important, but not to the extent that they have reached. It just goes back to the professionalization and having the accreditation and review. If you were having annual reviews in a professional manner for police officers annually, then they would have to face up to their mistakes. As it is now, they never really have to face up to their mistakes. Small ones, beget big ones.
Z.G.: Do you support weakening or abolishing police unions?
L.C.: So, I’m a pro-union person. I’m someone who believes someone should have the right to advocate for their needs but there is some… There needs to be some limits. Right?
Z.G.: Being able to just kill people willy-nilly isn’t a need, right?
L.C.: Exactly, I want the police officers and firemen and people who work in all these public services to have the right to unionize and have the right to you know, to collect, and bargaining, but there has become a much too politicized and too strong a role of the police union in my opinion. I don’t want to abolish the unions because I think they have the right to advocate, but I think there are better ways to cut down on these seemingly endless protections for police officers.
Z.G.: Would you support police discipline records being public?
L.C.: Absolutely. To me it’s absolutely insane that a police officer can be fired form a large city for disciplinary conduct and enough to get you fired which you and I both know has got to be kind of a lot, and can just show up in the suburbs the next day in uniform the next day and nobody knows. That’s not ok. Again, like, professionals, like dentists and doctors, they put those certificates online and things online. Why are we not doing that for people walking around with guns?
Z.G.: My next question is what should the overall goal or philosophy of the jail be? Because right now it seems like its mainly to incapacitate people for trial. Should the jail take a more active role in reducing recidivism and take a more active role in rehabilitation?
L.C.: Yeah I mean, that’s to go back to our kind of initial part of our conversation, is that I don’t want to take any money away for those programs, that help the incarcerated population. So, in any way that we can to you know, there are some people who commit crimes that are so terrible that we know that they’re not going to have a life outside of jail, but we can still make a space and a protected environment for them to exist in. Give them education and give them the right to have some fulfillment as a human being, in an incarcerated position. Now for people who have the right and will be getting out at some point, I think absolutely, I’m an educator-I’m a teacher-I want people to have… Education to me is the canopy that we should be providing them. Training, emotional health treatment so when they earn their release then they are able or are at least empowered in a way to start a life and not just find themselves on the side of the street. They’ve got some tools in their toolbox for how to go forward in their life or make better choices or create an economic environment for themselves that will make themselves more stable.
Z.G. My last question is do you support abolishing cash bail?
L.C.: I think we have seen it work in a lot of places… and so yeah I think the idea that someone could be held in jail and they simply don’t have the money to get out whereas rich people can just get out then is just stupid. You know what’s really frustrating to me is that the local deal is that when the rich pay peoples bail and the Republicans get all up in arms about it, and I’m like, judges create the bail. Judges set the bail, if the judge didn’t think that person should be out they wouldn’t get a monetized bail. So I think that somehow it has become a politicized issue when we’re actually just… I mean we’re following the rules-we’re following the system, but I do think that cash bail should be-I really don’t think that your financial position in the world should determine whether or not you’re incarcerated.
