09/24/2020
Interviews with Bloomington elected officials on policing & police accountability:
Ward 1 Jamie Mathy
Interview recorded: 07/06/2020
Zachary Gittrich: What do you think about activist’s demands to decrease police budgets?
Jamie Mathy: I think it’s worth sitting down and having a conversation on. But, the demands are—I think they’re all starting talking points. And there’s two sides to every story. It’s always worth reviewing policies and procedures to see if what we’re doing is meeting community needs.
ZG: What steps do you think BPD should take to increase accountability among officers?
JM: I think they’ve already done a significant amount of that work in the last few years, starting with Chief Heffner and coming forward today. They have internal accountability. We’ve already instituted body cams and got that policy up & running. And the police have self-policed (if you can use that phrase, I guess) and have actually caught when officers didn’t do things the way they were supposed to per codes and per books and already enforce those policies with each other. So there’s a bunch of stuff that has already been done.
There’s more stuff I think that we could possibly do. Some of the calls for switching funding from police to mental health professionals. That’s a really interesting conversation, and I think that’s absolutely worth having. How that’s done and what the accountability of that looks like? I don’t have the answer to.
One of the questions I have is we have a system right now if someone calls for help the police are going to show up. What does a system look like and what does it look like if someone makes a call, and its a mental health emergency; and, the dispatcher decides this isn’t a police call, this is a mental health call: send this person from agency X. What does the level of accountability look like if no one shows up? The process and procedure questions of how this works to make sure that when a call happens someone shows up that is appropriate. I think there are a lot of details that have to be figured out; but, I think it’s a very interesting concept.
ZG: Do you think the Bloomington police department are too militarized?
JM: No, I don’t. A couple of years ago I made a request for all inventory of all equipment that was being purchased. I want to know if anything is being purchased by BPD using tax dollars that is outside the realm of pistols & shotguns. Is there anything of a more substantive arsenal being purchased? And, I was told no at the time. Recently, I requested an inventory just to make sure there wasn’t some back-channel way things were being purchased.
[Alderperson Mathy forwarded an email he received from BPD]:
ZG: Did you support the creation of a civilian review board for Bloomington?
JM: I absolutely supported that. I think it has gone pretty well. There’s only been like 3 complaints that have gotten to the board, and that’s because a lot of complaints that happen are reviewed by the police firs in order to see what the complaint was, if it is warranted, and then to take action from there. Then, things go to the PSCRB if someone filed a complaint with BPD and feels the judgement was incorrect. That means that most of the complaints-which we don’t have a ton of–feel that BPD handled correctly and took the appropriate action.
ZG: Would you support turning the Chief of police position into an elected position?
JM: No, because we’ve seen what happens when you have an elected position in McLean County.
ZG: Would you support abolishing qualified immunity?
JM: I think it’s worth looking at. There are specifics I would want to know again how it would work. For instance, one side of the argument is without qualified immunity no one would sign up to be a police officer. I don’t know if there are other communities that have already abolished it. I honestly don’t know the answer to that.
The other side of the argument is if you don’t have qualified immunity why would anyone do this work? Well, doctors & nurses don’t have qualified immunity, and they still seem to be signing up for that job. So, I think it’s worth a conversation but there’s gotta be a deep dive into how it would work and what the impacts would be. How do the details actually pan out if we do this?
I do have a fear because we have had an issue in the last 5-10 years of hiring police officers and firefighters. We still have a pretty severe shortage of firefighters; we’re not as bad off with police officers. We even pay more than a lot of communities surrounding us and we still can’t get as many people as we need.
ZG: Do you support weakening or abolishing police unions?
JM: This is Illinois so good luck with that. Illinois is the home of union power so I don’t see that happening anytime soon. My brothers are all union welders and I know and am very well versed in the benefits of union and union activity. However, being on city council has opened my eyes to the times where working with unions is not a good thing; it can actually be a detriment. Unions in Illinois have a significant amount of power.
ZG: Currently, we have a system where the police review themselves or if it’s a more serious offense an outside police agency might review the case. Who do you think should be in charge of reviewing and punishing officers alleged to have committed wrongs?
JM: That’s a really good question. I wouldn’t be opposed to a combination. When I’ve been involved in other agencies, for instance, I’m on the board of the community health care clinic. About half the members of the board are nurses and doctors, and the other half are not. And we get two completely different viewpoints and often come to different decisions and different compromises. There’s times they get into the weeds and I’m like, “you guys are using acronyms that I have no idea what we’re even talking about right now.” And there’s other times where I’m talking about looking at stuff as a small business owner, and they’re like we wouldn’t even thought of that.
Having outside perspectives is always useful. But there’s also a significant amount of stuff that is specific to if someone who isn’t a member of that profession is simply not going to have the frame of reference to know whether someone did something right or if that was part of procedure or policy or training. I would be supportive of a mixed unit working together on a plan. Hopefully nothing happens to where we need that in Bloomington. A lot of the stuff we did with the citizen review board was hoping we never needed it, but that if there was a time we did need it it was better to have a plan in place.
ZG: Would you support police discipline records be public? As far as I know, they are currently are not public.
JM: They are not public, but they are subject to judicial review if they are for evidence for a lawyer.
Again, I would want to get the info on that. There are an awful lot of stories of police doing bad things going to a different community and getting a job and doing more bad things in the new community. Illinois has some of the strictest laws in the nation regarding what you can and can’t say as an employer. As an employer, if someone calls me for a job reference, basically what I’m allow to say is “yes, they worked here” and “yes/no” of whether I would rehire them. The laws in Illinois are pretty strict about this. That being said, police should be held to a high standard.
Illinois did change the law a few years ago, so if someone applies to work at a different police station, the member of the hiring team can physically travel to the previous police department, ask to review the file privately, and be given access to the file.
ZG: Sounds like a very circuitous way of gathering information.
JM: Yeah. Talking to City Manager Tim Gleasan1, he said it was a very welcome change; and, that Bloomington has used that to go to other communities, look at someones file, and then not hire that person because of it.
ZG: There was a video making the rounds on Facebook of BPD officers escorting an alleged runaway minor, and there were some people that didn’t think their behavior was right and some people thought it was fine. I was just wondering if you had any comment on that.
JM: I watched the video, and I did not see the officers do anything wrong in that video. The kid had runaway, the parents had called in and reported it, so they had asked the police to find their son and please bring him back. I think that is the expectation from parents if something like that happens you want to know the police are going to bring the kid back. Some people said they were grabbing his arms too hard, well he was struggling trying to runaway again, I mean, what are the police supposed to do? I didn’t see anything that was going to hurt the kid or cause any kind of permanent damage; I watched the video three times. They did their job, and they did not answer the questions from the man because a minor was involved. And, if you read further down in the comments of that social media post, one of the kids cousins posted, “this is my lil cousin; he does this stuff all the time.” I think there was some definite overreaction that was happening with that video.
Ward 2 Donna Boelen
Recorded: 7/3/2020
Zachary Gittrich: What steps do you think BPD should take to increase accountability among officers and increase trust in the community?
Donna Boelen: I prefer to discuss things directly with the person I may have a concern with. So speaking with the chief of police or representative of the police is where I would begin to have a conversation.
ZG: Are their cuts you can think of that would be worth making to BPD’s budget?
DB: Well, I think that I would need to do research as to exactly where all the expenditures are being made. I will use an example: if you are a homeowner you not only have to pay your mortgage but also insurance, property tax, utilities, maintenance; there are a lot of hidden costs; and I think that is true of any company, business, or organization that an outside might be aware of.
So, I cannot commit to what I think should be removed from a budget, until I’m completely familiar with what’s in the budget.
ZG: Do you think Bloomington police department is too militarized?
DB: Well, we need to define militarized. In my opinion, militarized would be tanks. So, equipment that the military would use. Again, I’d have to speak with the police department to have them show me the equipment that they use before I could decide whether or not I believe that.
ZG: Did you support the creation of a civilian review board for Bloomington?
DB: I was not on the council when it was passed, but I do support the principle.
ZG: Do you think there is anything that could be done to make it stronger or more effective? Or do you think it is operating just fine?
DB: There’s always room for improvement, no matter what. At this point in time, there has not been any criticisms by that particular board. It was Black Lives Matter: Bloomington-Normal who requested the formation. I have not heard any complaints from them for the two or three years it’s been in place.
ZG: Would you support turning the Chief of police position into an elected position?
DB: I haven’t given that any thought. I understand where that question is coming from, where the population could remove a police chief. I’m not necessarily in favor of making everything political. I do believe the council, the elected officials, can influence whether or not a department head that would not be following regulations on whether they would stay on the job.
ZG: Would you support abolishing qualified immunity?
DB: I don’t have enough information. I’d like to look at statutes and definitions of what this really entails. Am I in favor of holding people accountable? Absolutely. How do you do that? That I don’t know.
ZG: I know Alderperson Painter (Ward 5) in one of her interviews she supported getting rid of qualified immunity and if an officer is sued–right now its the city that would pay–Painter suggested it come out of their pension.
DB: I did read that. That certainly is one approach. Again, I’d like to read up–you know there are many approaches: make them carry insurance, or it could be Joni’s suggestion. But, until I understand what that immunity is, I’m not sure I can give an answer to change that.
ZG: Do you support weakening or abolishing police unions?
DB: That’s a complicated question, Cause if you consider abolishing police unions then you need to abolish all unions. To me, you’re either in favor of unions cause it protects your job, and I would hesitate to go down that path. I think it’s something worth looking into, because like every union, they have a tremendous amount of lobbying, financial influence. That is something that would need to be looked at but would need to be applied equitably.
ZG: Who do you think should be in charge of reviewing and punishing officers alleged to have committed wrongs?
DB: Certainly, someone who has walked-the-walk.
ZG: Someone with lived-experience.
DB: Experience. Because, you’ve not been out on the street and experienced what a police officer has experience; and, neither have I. So, for me to judge their action would not be fair. So I think whoever is doing any kind of review would need to be someone who has full knowledge of the job, the responsibility, and the law.
ZG: There was a video making the rounds on Facebook of BPD officers escorting an alleged runaway minor, and there were some people that didn’t think their behavior was right and some people thought it was fine. I was just wondering if you had any comment on that.
DB: When you see a portion of a video, a snippet of a video–I did see the video that was posted. I did not see what led up to that. If the police were the one’s called, why did the parents not call a social worker or a friend? They choose to call the police. And, the police do need to respond accordingly. From the video it did not look like they were abusing him. But, if he’s going to try to run away, you have to hold on.
The way it was reported was that the kid ran away. I don’t know his history. You don’t know where that’s coming from but the police did their job. It may not look pretty on the video; but prior to that video clip if the police had made a concerted effort to deescalate the situation and it didn’t help and the kid tried to bolt, do you just let him run? Then, you’re not performing the service that the parent asked for.
Jenn Carrillo (Ward 6):
Recorded: 7/16/2020
ZG: What steps do you think BPD should take to increase accountability among officers?
JC: I think one step they can take is to actually advocate for the strongest possible civilian review board; I don’t know if that’s something they are going to do. But, if they were interested in actually increasing the level of accountability within the department, then I think they have to be willing to entrust and empower residents who oversee them to a greater extent to whats been the case.
ZG: How would you like to see the Civilian Review Board empowered? What are some of the deficits you see now?
JC: In our fight for the Civilian Review Board, a number of civil rights organizations, including BLM, the NAACP, YWCA, Not In Our Town, drafted a proposal of what we thought the civilian review board should look like. This included the power of the board to make policy recommendations and an expectation that they would be making policy recommendations on a quarterly level and constantly reviewing our police practices and protocols. That didn’t really make it into the latest iteration of the civilian review board.
The Review Board as it stands today bars people who have had prior felonies from serving on the board; I would argue that actually deprives us of having folks on there who have had transformative experiences in the criminal justice center.
ZG: Was there a specific justification for excluding felons from being on the review board?
JC: Well, it’s funny. I think one of the leading voices for that was Alderwoman Joni Painter (Ward 5). She talked about how she was fearful that felons with an axe to grind would come back, try to get on the board, to punish police. Which was always very strange, because the board as they set it up really doesn’t have any punitive power; so that always seemed strange. Then, there was this kind of false equivalence where people were saying we should have cops on the board, and we’re saying, “No, that literally defeats the purpose of an independent civilian review board.” And, the opposition basically said if we can’t have cops, you can’t have felons.
ZG: Do you support efforts to decrease the police budgets? Are their cuts you can think of that would be worth making?
JC: I actually don’t think that focusing on one specific area is the right approach; I think it is about creating a very clear set of enforcement priorities. For example, even though cannabis has become legalized, there are still many ways you can be arrested for it; even though that’s the law, we have discretion about what our priorities are for the department. So, I think that a very clear directive from City Council could be we don’t want you to spend your time doing that, and we also don’t want you to spend your time doing routine traffic stops just because. We don’t want you focusing on Broken Windows type of behavior. We want to decriminalize certain behaviors: we could do that via ordinance or a directive to the police department stating those aren’t priorities for us as a city. So, rather than necessarily saying we’re cutting funding from this; I think its about the system as a whole and what resources are going to.
Also, end compulsory replacements of officers who retire or quit. If we have vacant positions, then we can eliminate those and not rehire for those. As opposed to all at once, cutting X number of people from the force which would be more jarring of a change.
ZG: Do you think local police departments are too militarized?
JC: I honestly don’t think it rises to the level of other communities that actually do have tanks to play with…
ZG: …like Peoria…
JC: because the federal government has allowed them access to this technology. I do think we run the risk of a community that over-relies on surveillance. I do understand that a place the department wants to go is have more cameras throughout the city. That’s a concern to me, because while that’s not something people realize as acutely as police militarization, it contributes to a type of policing which is what I don’t think we need.
ZG: Would you support turning the Chief of police position into an elected position?
JC: Yea, I think that would be a great way to ensure accountability. I wouldn’t be opposed to that because even if we get all the right people elected to city council, it is still a strong city manager system. In order to have a directive the council has to agree to it and the city manager has to execute it to the chief of police, and then the chief of police has to execute it to the department. I think if there was a more direct link of accountability and the public I think that might be more conducive. Although that’s the first time I’m thinking that, but I’d be open to it.
ZG: Would you support abolishing qualified immunity?
JC: Yeah, I do. I think that’s one of the lowest hanging fruit in terms of police reform that are most achievable in the immediate future. That said, we run up against police unions as an obstacle to some of those reforms. That’s a conversation not really happening: the role of police unions. One of the most startling things I read recently, in Minneapolis, the Mayor legislated that police could not take part in Warrior Training, and the head of the police union just said screw that we’re going to do it anyway. The union continued to fund the training to any of their officers. So, that brings up a scary question of what happens if the mayor and city council are in agreement about what we want the police to do. And then what accountability do they have to us really if the police union plays a role of noncompliance.
ZG: So, is there a difference to you between police unions and other unions?
JC: It’s a different animal entirely. Particularly because of the high stakes nature of policing. Teachers play very important roles in society, but we don’t empower them to take away people’s life & liberty, and that makes it different when the teachers use a union to negotiate for their contract vs police unions. Policing is one of the essential services cities provide so there’s very little room for real negotiation unless we enact some kind of reform that would limit the power of police unions.
ZG: What is a good way to articulate that difference if we’re talking police unions vs AFSCME?
JC: It has a lot to do power. Workers use unions because without them they are without power in relation to their bosses. Whereas that powerlessness doesn’t exist in the same way with police officers.
ZG: Would you support police discipline records be public?
JC: Yes. Absolutely. I think that’s a big part of what enables this type of behavior to go on is that you’ll have disciplinary issues with police officers who will leave the force and get hired somewhere else. It’s not until something terrible happens that we are able to find out that this person with a documented history that we shouldn’t give them this power.
ZG: The IL AG has supported licensing for police which would make it easier to remove bad officers. Would you support something like this?
JC: All of these things like ending qualified immunity, licensing, & more training, I’m not someone who is going to vociferously oppose those things but I think we’re missing the mark. Again, what all of those are is attempts to reform a system that we have evidence over the last half century cannot be reformed. I would argue can’t be reformed out of their purpose that was the origins of this institution. The police were invented to enforce laws that intentionally subjugate black people and people of color. The origin of policing is slave patrols and folks breaking up worker’s strikes. So, how do you reform the police away from what they’ve always existed to do? I don’t think it’s possible. I think there’s a lot of evidence: some of it is the stuff with a mayor saying no more training and the police union just saying we’re going to do whatever we want; part of it is choke holds are banned in NYC when Eric Garner was murdered; studies show police cameras aren’t actually changing the behavior of police officers in any significant way.
You can’t say we haven’t been trying. Clearly the results aren’t at the level they could be, so we’re considering what services could be better provided to other people and how do we minimize and phase out a system that is punitive in nature.
ZG: What kind of alternatives to policing do you support?
JC: The most direct and obvious is re-routing responses to what appear to be mental health crisis or homeless situations where a police officer might not be the most appropriate first responder. I think when it comes to traffic, I can see a role for the city to let you know that your tail light is out and maybe help you fix it. But not as a pre-text to continue investigating what else is going on with you and your car. We have to remember that while it may feel like these things make us more safe, the majority of the time spent by our police officers isn’t actually in preventing crime. It in getting there after the fact and investigating. Even then, we’re not seeing the type of solutions we’d like to see after an investigation is done.
ZG: You posted a video online on Facebook of BPD officers escorting an alleged runaway minor, and you noted that you had some concerns with that. Did you want to speak on that?
JC: Well just cause you can, doesn’t mean it should. Maybe it’s all perfectly legal, but does it look good? No. Does it mark this juvenile in a way that he’s going to have a pretty strong aversion to police officers? Totally. Then what does that do to a community? Then, we have folks growing up not trusting cops so when there’s actually an incident that hurts people that we need help from the community to resolve, those folks aren’t going to talk with a police. These things don’t get fixed with Cookie with a Cop. Maybe police aren’t the right first responders for kids with behavioral issues and someone else would have had the patience with this kid or just followed him home. But the moment they started touching him they were escalating the situation in a way I don’t think was necessary or effective.
ZG: Of course, BPD’s response to that is they believe he was a continued flight risk and that is why they decided to take those steps. There were family members commenting that this is normal behavior for that specific juvenile. I think we can all agree that law enforcement shouldn’t be dealing with that situation. But what is it you would have wanted those two officers to do in that situation?
JC: I feel like I only saw apart of the story. I don’t know how it came to be that that kid was agitated to that point so I can’t really speak to where things began to escalate. What I can hear in that video is a kid saying, “Don’t touch me.” If it’s a kid old enough to be able to articulate then you can engage in a negotiation with them, like saying “ok I wont touch you, but I need you to get home right now.” This is something as parents, folks do all the time. I don’t expect our police officers to develop that expertise as part of their job, so we need to recognize that there are other people who can address these needs. There is zero need for uniformed folks who don’t live in our community and who are armed to be the first responder to this kid who is running away. That’s a recipe for disaster.
ZG: Is there a requirement that BPD officers live in the city?
JC: No, and the majority do not. When the Jefferson Street house was opened and a non-profit offered it to anyone in the Bloomington police department rent-free and no one took it. I think that speak volumes and sends a clear message to the community: these are folks coming in from the outside coming in to police us, not our neighbors showing care for our neighborhood.
Jeff Crabill (Ward 8)
Recorded: 07/14/2020
Zachary Gittrich: What steps do you think BPD should take to increase accountability among officers?
Jeff Crabill: One, making public complaints against officers so that the public knows how many complaints are against an officer.
Another, would be to make the appeals process more independent. Create something in which the police aren’t investigating themselves. So we have an independent body that can look to see if the complaint has any merit.
ZG: Do you support efforts to decrease the police budgets? Are their cuts you can think of that would be worth making?
JC: I think there are [cuts]. Part of it is looking at line items they want to spend money on: big or small. How much time are officers spending on mental health issues, homelessness issues, and once you look at that you say can we take some of this off their plate. Then, how many officers do you actually need to respond to actual violent crimes. I don’t know what that exact amount is, but they are bringing in more police and the goal is to make the force more diverse. Ultimately, I don’t know if that’s how we want to go where we’re increasing funding for the police where we don’t increase in other areas like affordable housing or mental health services.
ZG: There’s a lot of push from groups like the NAACP to really get more diversity in the police force. In your opinion, do you think that is particularly effective at reducing police violence.
JC: I don’t know. On its face it would seem to make sense if people of color, especially black people, are more likely to be subject to police violence it makes superficial sense that if you had more black officers that the police violence wouldn’t happen as much. However, if you think of it from the perspective of police culture, and if you’re bringing in diverse officers under the same situation, how much is that actually going to help? I don’t think it’s a problem-solver, it may help to some degree. But I don’t think that gets us to where we wanna be which is a police force is equitable and doesn’t treat people differently based on their race.
ZG: Did you support the creation of the Civilian Review Board and what would you like to see changed about it?
JC: I think it is something that looks good on the surface. You had protesters calling for a reduction of police violence and putting something into place to help do that. Instead of putting something meaningful in, they did something to placate protesters and say they did something without actually doing much. I don’t discount the efforts the people on the PSCRB board have done. A lot of my complaints is because the charter of their powers are limited and that can’t do all they need to do to monitor police behavior. Sometimes it appears like they are being run by the police instead of monitoring the police.
ZG: So what would you like to see changed about it?
JC: Like I said before, is there something that could be set up to allow independent reporting of police misconduct that could be investigated by the PSCRB and not just at the appeal level? You know we hear there is only a few complaints to the department and then only 1-2 appeals to the PSCRB. If you put yourself in the shoes of someone who feels they’ve been subject to excessive force, how is that person going to feel about making a report to the police? How comfortable are they going to be that something is actually going to happen or if they make this complaint will there be any retaliation could there be? The PSCRB are simply there to see if the police followed their procedures only with regard to the police investigating the complaint, they aren’t there to determine whether excessive force was used. I would like something with more teeth, where people would feel comfortable reporting something and more confident something would be done.
ZG: Would you support abolishing qualified immunity?
JC: With regards to qualified immunity, the officers are protected from personal liability if they are sued. I would be in favor for getting rid of that. The City of Bloomington has paid out a number of settlements over the years. If that conduct caused an officer some personal exposure, could that be a disincentive to the conduct alleged? Potentially.
ZG: Do you support weakening or abolishing police unions?
JC: I wouldn’t say weaken or abolish. I think their role should be limited. They shouldn’t have a veto power over a police department wanting to get rid of a bad officer. There can be due process, but sometimes it means you can’t do anything to get rid of the officer. The officer in Minneapolis who had like 17 complaints against him, I think the union protecting him had a lot to do with that.
ZG: The IL AG has supported licensing for police which would make it easier to remove bad officers. Would you support something like this?
JC: Yes, I support that. I don’t think that’s the end all be all. But that would help prevent a bad officer from getting a job somewhere else.
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